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A UK based Emergency Medicine podcast for anyone who works in emergency care. The St Emlyn ’s team are all passionate educators and clinicians who strive to bring you the best evidence based education. Our four pillars of learning are evidence-based medicine, clinical excellence, personal development and the philosophical overview of emergency care. We have a strong academic faculty and reputation for high quality education presented through multimedia platforms and articles. St Emlyn’s is a name given to a fictionalised emergency care system. This online clinical space is designed to allow clinical care to be discussed without compromising the safety or confidentiality of patients or clinicians.
Episodes

Sunday Jun 29, 2014
Ep 7 - Delving into the Number Needed To Treat, RRR and ARR.
Sunday Jun 29, 2014
Sunday Jun 29, 2014
Understanding Relative Risk, Absolute Risk, and Number Needed to Treat: A Guide for Emergency Medicine
Welcome back to the St. Emlyn’s podcast. I’m Iain Beardsell and joining me is Simon Carley. Today, we’re delving into the complex yet critical concepts of relative risk, absolute risk, and the number needed to treat (NNT) in the context of emergency medicine. These metrics are essential for understanding the effectiveness of treatments and making informed decisions in clinical practice.
The Importance of Understanding Risk Metrics
In emergency medicine, it’s vital to comprehend how different treatments impact patient outcomes. This understanding not only helps in communicating with patients but also aids in making better clinical decisions. Two key terms frequently encountered are relative risk reduction and absolute risk reduction.
Relative Risk Reduction vs. Absolute Risk Reduction
Imagine we are conducting a trial on a new drug for myocardial infarction (AMI) patients. Typically, 10% of AMI patients die within a month. If our new treatment claims a 50% relative risk reduction, it sounds impressive. However, understanding what this actually means is crucial. A 50% relative risk reduction translates to reducing the death rate from 10% to 5%. While this is significant, it's essential to recognize the difference between relative and absolute risk reduction.
Calculating the Number Needed to Treat (NNT)
The NNT is a valuable metric for understanding how many patients need to receive a particular treatment to prevent one additional adverse outcome. It’s derived from the absolute risk reduction. For instance, if a treatment reduces mortality from 10% to 5%, the absolute risk reduction is 5%. To calculate the NNT, divide 100 by the absolute risk reduction percentage. In this case, 100 divided by 5 equals an NNT of 20. This means we need to treat 20 patients to save one life.
Examples of NNT in Practice
Let’s consider some real-world examples. Tranexamic acid in trauma has an NNT of around 50, meaning we need to treat 50 patients to save one life. For aspirin in treating myocardial infarction, the NNT is also around 50. These figures highlight the effectiveness of these treatments in clinical practice.
Balancing Benefits and Harms
Understanding NNT is crucial, but it’s equally important to consider the number needed to harm (NNH). This metric indicates how many patients need to receive a treatment before one adverse effect occurs. For example, in trials involving starch solutions for sepsis, the NNH was found to be around 10-16. This means for every 10 to 16 patients treated, one additional death occurred. Balancing the benefits and harms is essential for making informed clinical decisions.
Example: Stroke Thrombolysis
In stroke thrombolysis, the NNT is around 8, meaning one in eight patients benefits from the treatment. However, the NNH is about 16, indicating one in 16 patients might experience a harmful outcome, such as intracerebral hemorrhage. Communicating these risks and benefits to patients is crucial for informed consent and shared decision-making.
The Role of Natural Frequencies
Using natural frequencies, such as “one in 100 people” or “one in 50 people,” helps in explaining risks and benefits in a more understandable way. For instance, saying “one in 100 people in your neighborhood” or “one person in a packed football stadium” can make the statistics more relatable.
Misdiagnosis and Its Impact
A key takeaway is that not every missed diagnosis leads to adverse outcomes. Often, treatments may have minimal benefit, and in some cases, they could cause harm. For example, the rush to administer clopidogrel in acute myocardial infarction might not always be necessary, given its relatively high NNT.
Applying These Concepts in Clinical Practice
Understanding and applying these concepts can change how we approach patient care. It allows us to prioritize interventions that provide the most significant benefit while minimizing potential harm. It also highlights the importance of taking time to ensure the right diagnosis and treatment, rather than rushing into potentially harmful decisions.
The Number Needed to Educate (NNE)
A fun and thought-provoking concept introduced in our discussion is the Number Needed to Educate (NNE). How many blogs or articles do you need to read before it changes your clinical practice? This metric emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and staying updated with the latest evidence-based practices.
Conclusion
In emergency medicine, understanding relative risk, absolute risk, and NNT is vital for making informed treatment decisions. These metrics help in balancing the benefits and harms of treatments, leading to better patient outcomes. By effectively communicating these risks and benefits to patients, we can ensure shared decision-making and improve overall patient care.
Read more at St Emlyns and on the accompanying blogpost

Thursday Jun 26, 2014
Ep 6 - SMACC Back-Back on What to believe and when to change.
Thursday Jun 26, 2014
Thursday Jun 26, 2014
Navigating the Challenges of Early and Late Adoption in Medical Practice
In the ever-evolving landscape of medicine, the timing of adopting new treatments and technologies is a critical decision for clinicians. Simon Carley, in a discussion with Scott from St. Emlyn's podcast, delves into the complexities of being an early or late adopter, exploring the associated risks and benefits. This conversation highlights the fine line between innovation and patient safety, and the careful considerations required for responsible clinical practice.
The Risks of Early and Late Adoption
Both early and late adoption come with inherent dangers. Early adopters, eager to implement new innovations, may face unforeseen consequences. A historical example is the use of flecainide in the 1980s, initially believed to reduce ventricular disruptions in post-MI patients. However, it was later found to potentially cause more harm than benefit, underscoring the unpredictability of medical advances. On the other hand, late adopters risk failing to provide patients with the latest and most effective treatments, potentially resulting in suboptimal care.
Carley emphasizes the importance of a balanced approach, avoiding the pitfalls of both extremes. He discusses the concept of "dogmalacis," the enthusiasm for challenging established medical practices with new evidence. Both he and Scott agree that while it is essential to embrace new findings, clinicians must do so with caution and a thorough understanding of the current evidence base.
The Complexity of Determining Optimal Timing
Determining the optimal timing for adopting new practices—referred to as the "Goldilocks moment"—is complex and often only clear in hindsight. Carley notes that senior clinicians, in particular, must exercise careful judgment, understanding the strength of the evidence supporting current practices before making changes. This prudence is crucial to ensure that new practices are adopted based on solid evidence rather than mere enthusiasm.
Case Study: Targeted Temperature Management (TTM) Trial
The discussion includes a specific example: the Targeted Temperature Management (TTM) trial, which challenged previous beliefs about the benefits of hypothermia in post-cardiac arrest care. The trial suggested that fever avoidance was more critical than aggressive cooling, sparking significant debate. This case illustrates how new evidence can disrupt established practices and provoke emotional responses among practitioners.
Carley and Scott also discuss the need for rigorous evidence, particularly randomized controlled trials (RCTs), to support the adoption of new technologies and treatments. They highlight the glidescope trial, which demonstrated potential harm from the device in a randomized setting. The scarcity of such trials in evaluating new medical technologies points to a gap in evidence-based practice, stressing the importance of high-quality research to guide clinical decisions.
Balancing Innovation with Caution
Carley shares personal reflections on the challenges of balancing innovation with caution. While acknowledging the necessity of early adopters for medical progress, he stresses the need for careful consideration and expertise. Not every clinician or situation is suited for early adoption; it requires a deep understanding of the underlying science and a cautious approach to patient care.
He draws parallels between professional and personal experiences, noting his own tendency toward late adoption in certain areas, such as his decision to marry. This anecdote serves as a metaphor for the broader discussion, highlighting that timing in adoption is crucial and often a personal, context-dependent decision.
Embracing Continuous Improvement
The conversation culminates in a shared commitment to continuous improvement in medical practice. Both Carley and Scott emphasize the importance of doing the best with current knowledge and being ready to change when better evidence becomes available. They resonate with Maya Angelou's quote: "Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better." This principle captures the essence of their discussion, advocating for a flexible and reflective approach to clinical practice.
Conclusion
Navigating the challenges of early and late adoption in medicine requires a careful balance between innovation and caution. Clinicians must be willing to embrace new evidence and change practices while ensuring that these changes are grounded in solid, high-quality research. The dialogue between Simon Carley and Scott highlights the complexities and responsibilities involved in this process, underscoring the need for continuous learning and adaptability in medical practice. Through thoughtful consideration and a commitment to evidence-based care, clinicians can optimize patient outcomes and advance the field of medicine.

Sunday Jun 15, 2014
Sunday Jun 15, 2014
What is a Diagnosis?
A diagnosis is essentially a label that we put on a patient to indicate what they have, which then guides our treatment decisions. In the ED, our primary focus is on identifying life-threatening conditions. This approach often involves working backwards by first ruling out serious conditions before considering what a patient might actually have.
Initial Diagnostic Approach
As emergency physicians, our initial approach is to use tests with high sensitivity. These tests are designed to pick up anyone who might have the disease. Once we rule out the serious conditions, we look at tests with high specificity to confirm the diagnosis, as treatments often carry risks. For example, therapies such as thrombolysis come with significant risks, so we need to be fairly certain before proceeding, unlike less consequential treatments like wrist splints.
Understanding Probabilities in Diagnoses
When we say a patient has a diagnosis, we’re essentially saying it’s likely enough to treat. Conversely, when we say a patient doesn’t have a diagnosis, we mean it’s unlikely enough to withhold treatment. This probabilistic approach is vital in the ED and can be surprising to many people.
Case Study: Cardiac Chest Pain
Let’s apply this to a patient with cardiac-sounding chest pain. Our goal is to either rule out or confirm the disease and start appropriate treatment. We start with specific tests to rule in a diagnosis, such as an ECG. A positive ECG with significant ST segment changes indicates a high likelihood of disease, warranting immediate treatment. This approach quickly sorts out high-risk patients.
For patients with normal or near-normal ECGs but still concerning symptoms, we need sensitive tests to ensure we don't miss anyone with myocardial disease. About 10% of these patients might have underlying issues, so we need to ensure our tests are sensitive enough to catch these cases.
Using Prevalence and Pre-test Probability
To decide if a patient has the disease, we must consider the prevalence or pre-test probability in our population. For example, in patients with normal ECGs and no alarming history, the pre-test probability might be around 10%. This isn’t low enough to rule out the disease but also not high enough to justify treatment without further testing.
Diagnostic Processes in the ED
We use a step-by-step diagnostic process. Starting with the most specific tests to rule in a diagnosis, we then use sensitive tests like high-sensitivity troponin to rule out diseases. High-sensitivity troponin tests are great for ruling out diseases due to their sensitivity. If the test is negative, we can be confident the patient doesn’t have myocardial damage. If the test is positive but not dramatically high, we may need additional tests to confirm the diagnosis.
Each diagnostic step adjusts our patient’s probability of having the disease. Our goal is to reach a probability low enough to safely rule out the disease or high enough to justify treatment. This process is continuous, and we apply it to every patient, whether they have chest pain or another symptom like a headache.
Understanding Likelihood Ratios
We often use likelihood ratios to interpret diagnostic tests. A positive likelihood ratio increases the probability of the disease, while a negative likelihood ratio decreases it. For example, a high-sensitivity troponin test is excellent at ruling out myocardial infarction because of its high sensitivity, though it’s not as good at ruling in due to lower specificity.
Optimising Diagnostic Tests
Diagnostic tests like troponin can be optimized by adjusting the threshold levels. For instance, a higher threshold might improve specificity and thus be better at ruling in the disease, while a lower threshold improves sensitivity, making it better at ruling out the disease. This principle applies to various tests, including white cell counts and amylase levels.
Continuous Assessment and Reassessment
In the ED, we continuously assess and reassess patients. Each diagnostic step, whether it’s asking a question about symptoms or ordering a lab test, adjusts our understanding of the patient’s condition. This iterative process helps us make informed decisions about treatment and ensures that we don’t miss critical diagnoses.
Applying the Approach to Different Symptoms
This diagnostic approach isn’t limited to chest pain. Whether a patient presents with a headache, abdominal pain, or any other symptom, we apply the same principles of sensitivity, specificity, and likelihood ratios. Each question we ask and each test we perform helps refine our assessment and move closer to a definitive diagnosis.
Conclusion
Mastering diagnostic skills in the ED involves understanding and applying probabilities, using specific and sensitive tests effectively, and continuously reassessing the patient’s condition. By focusing on these principles, we can make more accurate diagnoses, provide appropriate treatments, and ultimately improve patient outcomes.
More listening about diagnosis
Podcast – Diagnosis in Emergency Medicine Part 1 – SpIN and SnOUT
Podcast – Diagnosis in Emergency Medicine Part 2 – Beyond a simple yes or no
Podcast – Diagnosis in Emergency Medicine Part 3 – The importance of prevalence
